The Yellow Button discusses music in the age of streaming and TikTok.
Kelsie Herzog has been making waves as a music curator on YouTube and TikTok for over five years, amassing a large following with her warm energy and diverse taste. You may know “theyellowbutton” from her quirky playlists, niche music recommendations, or Anthony Fantano collaborations. She talks about anything from indie to emo to shoegaze and more, often highlighting smaller artists and providing a platform for them to reach wider audiences. I got a chance to speak with Kelsie about her rise on social media and the state of music in 2023 — read our conversation below and be sure to check out all of Kelsie’s content here.
photo by Nathanial Schmidt.
David Feigelson: How did you get started developing a presence online?
Kelsie Herzog: I started a YouTube channel in 2016. That was the era when vinyl started to get popular again, so everyone was doing this thing where they would get a vinyl box and post it on YouTube and I'm like, I'll do the same thing because I got the vinyl box too! So I started making YouTube videos and one day the company that sent the box took my video and started using it as an ad, and that gave me a small YouTube following. I was pretty sure they weren’t allowed to do that but I was so small it didn’t really matter. That happened and I've been doing YouTube videos ever since.
When the pandemic started, I was like, why don't I just talk about music on TikTok because I already do it on YouTube? So I went to TikTok and it was probably my second or third music related video — I was talking about band recommendations of the day — and it blew up overnight. I went from, I think 6,000 followers to 50,000 within a few days. It was extremely overwhelming and that was kind of the era on TikTok when people could just blow up so easily like that. It’s definitely not like that anymore, but it was very fast. So that whole thing happened and I continued to make YouTube videos and TikTok videos. Another thing that helped was, do you know Anthony Fantano?
DF: Yeah, familiar *laughs*.
KH: He posted one of my videos on Twitter and just said like, oh, look at this new creator, and then that gave me a ton of more followers and it was so overwhelming and crazy. It just kind of came from that, and it's been almost two years now. Ever since I've just been talking about music on the internet, sharing bands, & talking about bands.
DF: Cool. I think your TikTok has a bigger following than your YouTube channel?
KH: Oh yeah.
DF: So when that shift happened and you blew up on that platform, how did that change your approach to the content you make? It's a pretty different style and maybe audience.
KH: Yeah. At first, I really didn’t like short-form content because I was so used to YouTube and I wasn't on TikTok that much. I just didn’t like it and didn’t know how to make it that well! When I look back at my old videos I’m like these were really bad, but now I prefer the short form over the long form, just because no one has an attention span nowadays anyway — you need that fast content and it also takes a lot less work to make. I feel like no one really watches YouTube stuff like that anymore, so I've kind of moved away from that and it's more just for fun at this point.
DF: I know on TikTok there can be pressure to upload constantly to maintain your following. Have you felt that? How does that affect how you engage with the platform?
KH: Yeah. When I first blew up I was posting two videos a day. That's how it felt, like if you're not posting two to five videos a day you're not going to grow, so everyone was doing that and it was super overwhelming. I did it for three or four months, and it just gets tiring after a while, because you're filming so much and at some point, people don't want to be seeing you on the internet that often. But then there was a point when the algorithm stopped favoring that and gave preference to longer form stuff — it's just about learning what the algorithm wants. Now I make one to two videos a week; So I don't feel the pressure anymore, but it's very hard to grow on TikTok now.
DF: Yeah. I also feel like with music content you need time to listen to things to know what you're talking about, so if you have to post daily I could imagine you might run out of content.
KH: Oh yeah, totally agree.
DF: Was it just that Fantano reposted your video or have you done anything more like directly with him? Also, have you worked with other people on TikTok, and if so how has that community treated you?
KH: Yeah, I’ve done two videos with Anthony Fantano. It was so strange, and it was back when my following started to grow. I used to do band recommendations of the day, just recommending a few bands and talking about them, and we did two or three of those together. But besides that, I feel like there's not too much of a community that talks about the same music I talk about on TikTok. There are a lot of creators talking about rap and hip hop and R&B, but I don't have too many mutuals in my genre realm, although there are a few others that I follow and I'm definitely friends with.
DF: That makes sense. I've noticed some of your content toes a line between targeting music fans and small musicians. What’s your approach, do you make an active decision to speak to one audience or do you oscillate more naturally?
KH: I guess I never thought about it that way. That brings to mind a series on Instagram I sometimes do called “On the Button”, where I highlight smaller artists. It was fun at first, but became an issue because people only knew me for that but I didn’t want that because I felt like I was so much more! It got really tiring because I had so many bands emailing me every day asking to be put on the series, asking how much they had to pay and I just started to feel like not so good about it. So I'm trying to move away from the smaller artists aspect of things, but still kind of keeping it tied in somehow!
DF: That makes sense. I'm going to shift a bit to talk about playlisting and the other things that you do. I'm curious what your process for creating playlists looks like and if you shift gears between playlisting personally and for friends as opposed to more professionally oriented stuff?
KH: Yeah, lots of questions! So my process for making a playlist is not necessarily intense, but a lot to think about. I don't make playlists all the time, there's people who make them every week or every day but I feel like I need to have a specific mood or a specific genre that I want to stick with to make one. I have so many random ones, like my “club penguin pizza parlor” one is just jazz. I have a lot of them for random genres I guess, and I always want to think of quirky names because I feel like people know my playlists for the goofy titles. I listen to them all the time, like I don’t just make them for my followers, I really like listening to them and that's why I feel like they're more for myself even though a lot of my audience also likes them! What was the other question about personal playlists?
DF: Yeah like if you also make playlists for your Patreon and stuff, I don't know if there's a difference in the research process, like how you like seek out music versus pulling from things that you already listen to?
KH: Yeah, so for some of my patrons that I've made playlists for, I don't know some of the artists that they talk about, so I have to do research like you said. It's embarrassing, but I'll look at Reddit because there's some people who give good opinions on there sometimes. I'll also look at Last.fm, even though I feel like it can be outdated, or I’ll look at the Spotify fans also like tab because those artists are usually pretty good. But a lot of it is knowledge from playlists that I've already made for other people too.
DF: Do you keep up with popular criticism like Fantano or Pitchfork or get music from those kind of things?
KH: Not really. I don't like reading music blogs that much because they tend to be extremely opinionated to a point where it feels like the blogger loses touch with the actual artist/music itself and focuses more on the act of criticizing the music instead. But I do think Fantano has a lot of music knowledge that people let go over their heads when they bash him. He knows a lot — I've talked to him and he's just like such a dad, it's so funny.
DF: Did you talk to him in the lead up to your videos together?
KH: Yeah, he reached out! It was so weird I'm like this is literally not happening right now.
DF: Yeah that’s super cool. Okay, more on your Patreon, how did that come to be and has that helped allow you to do this with more of your time, and how has that changed what else you have to be doing for work?
KH: Yeah, so right now I would say Patreon is a very very part time thing. It was really big at first, like I would go on TikTok live all the time when my page blew up and random people would ask me to make them playlists. I thought it was a weird request, and they'd be like yeah we'll pay you for it, and I was like what!? So I just asked my followers how I should go about it, and I ended up doing Patreon. I had tons of people coming in all the time asking for custom playlists; it was so intense and I was making like 50 a month at one point! It’s slowed down a bit, but I also do a secret playlist of the month there and that one seems to be more popular now than the custom playlists! It's definitely dwindled a lot, which is okay because I'm way more busy with my other full time job.
DF: Awesome. I have a few questions that I’ve been asking most people I interview, about the changing landscape of the music industry. I feel like as someone who engages with a lot of these platforms you're in an interesting position to comment. I'm going to intentionally leave this open-ended, so approach it however you'd like. How do you think streaming and playlisting and this whole new model of consuming music has affected musicians and the music industry?
KH: I feel like now music is way too accessible to some extent; people can listen to anything at any time, and there's so much out there, and it can be very hard to find something new and fresh. I feel like I've heard everything already, and it's very hard to know like “is this actually a good band or is it just a rip off of another band?” I feel like people are losing inspiration just because of how accessible music is to everyone, like people aren't really experimenting anymore. There were new genres coming up left and right in the 90s, early 2000s, 80s, etc., and now I think some of the newest ones have been like hyperpop, glitch core, that kind of stuff. But I don't know, I just feel like it's very hard to find something totally new.
DF: That makes sense. I'm of two minds about it, because on the one hand I would hope that the internet making so much music so accessible to large audiences would inspire people to do crazy things and combine sounds that just wouldn't have found each other otherwise. I feel like there are some examples of that, but I agree that at least with hyperpop in the past few years, it has felt like there hasn't been as much innovation as there's been copycats. Even with some of the pioneers of the field, I don't know if they’re doing what they should be doing to push it forward.
KH: Yeah, it's a lot of money that goes into it too I think, and what their labels want them to make. There are so many bands I used to listen to when I was sixteen or seventeen that were pop punk and now they're like Old Navy core. Why? It probably makes them more money in the long run.
DF: Yeah it is. Another version of this question is how TikTok and maybe other platforms play into this dynamic, and how they change the music scene in general?
KH: That's a good question too. I feel like I'm on both sides. I think it's a really good thing that happened to the music industry, but also really bad, because the way people promote their songs will be posting a video every single day of a clip of their new song, so when the new song comes out you don't want to hear it because you've heard that clip so many times. So that’s the part I don’t like, but the good thing is that I've had a lot of friends post music on there, and then one of their videos blows up randomly and they gain huge followings! This stuff didn't happen before TikTok; like if you were a small band, you were a small band for a very long time, unless you somehow knew people in the industry. I think TikTok is very powerful if you use it right. A lot of bands are scared of it too, just because of that, and how much work it is, but sometimes it can really pay off!
DF: How would you suggest bands or smaller artists use it? What would you warn against and what would you advocate for?
KH: I feel like the bands that I'm more drawn to show their personalities on their TikTok, rather than just continuously promoing two five second clips of their new songs. Showing their personalities is a really good thing because people love parasocial relationships, so they're like “oh these guys feel like my friends, this is really cool, they could be a good band” and stuff like that. Having fun with it is also a huge thing, just not taking it so seriously, which I know everyone says, but it's really true!
DF: Do you have any other advice for musicians? You've posted a number of videos talking about getting music heard by playlist curators like yourself, and I'm wondering if you’ve noticed patterns or trends in bands that have done well and gained larger followings as opposed to those that like haven't really gotten off the ground?
KH: Yeah, I would say a lot of it is nailing down your sound and making sure you're not just throwing music out there if you want to take it seriously. I've had a lot of bands reach out to me and their music just does not sound well produced. There are some bands that feel like they need to release music all the time! So taking the time to actually nail down your sound as an artist or band is very important, and also just making connections with people and other bands! Playing local shows is a great place to start, but if you want to branch out, definitely make friends with people on the internet who are in other bands. Hear their experiences, become friends with them, and then maybe someday you could tour with them. I think touring is a huge thing too — even if you're a small band, it's super important!
DF: That makes sense. I think my only other question is what do you see in the future, both for yourself and where you think music may be headed?
KH: I feel like the one thing I would want to do is become an A&R, if that were possible. I have no idea how I could even achieve that, but that's a goal of mine in the next five years! I think that's probably the only place I could take what I do and turn it into something more serious. I feel like it would be fun. Your other question was where do I see the music industry going?
DF: Yeah.
KH: I don't know, I feel like we're at such a plateau right now, I just don't know how it could go up. But while I feel like it’s stagnant, I'm hoping to hear some new genres soon or some revamped old ones, but it's hard to say!
DF: Are there any genre combinations or sounds that you would like to see happen, that might emerge in the next five years? For example, I really want a psychedelic drill album.
KH That'd be funny. One I would like to see, that I've heard one band do, is take a modern twist on old rock and roll. It's hard to explain, but there’s one band I found that nailed the sound and it sounds so fresh even though it's an older sound. But it's nice because you don't hear bands that do that kind of stuff anymore. So like oldies rock and roll but with a modern twist would be fun!
DF: Yeah that sounds cool. That's all the questions I have, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this stuff.
KH: Absolutely, thanks for having me.
edited by Tarun Sethi.
photo by Nathanial Schmidt.
